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Speer Gold Dot G2......

14K views 56 replies 6 participants last post by  lefty60 
#1 ·
...........is becoming avaiable and generating a lot of interest on the Net sites. Looks like there is still a degree of techno improvability in JHP/PT bullets based on early reports. What's your take?

Snewk
 
#4 ·
Thanks, I'm now an ed-u-ma-kated idiot, on the subject :eek:hmy:

I am constantly amazed by the advances in ammo. I remember when "Super Vel" was the "hot stuff", and hot it was.

I really don't see the need for a "heavy" bullet load for the 9mm. I sometimes think that the FBI keeps trying to "fix" a training issue with new guns and ammo. This seems to be the current trend with all law enforcement.

Having said that, I would like to see the actual practical amount of performance difference compared to other same weight/velocity types of projectiles.

Of course as always, regardless of "practicality", new toys are always fun :happy2::happy:
 
#6 ·
S A W E E E E E E E E T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks for posting snewk you've brought a new found joy to me today... but before I get to excited I have to see some of the results from testing, and what medium was used....

I loves me some 147gn that's for sure !!!! anyone have the velocity specs ? I read to page 5 and bailed.....
 
#8 ·
Specs for the 147 gr are probably gonna' be the same as far as velocity & energy as for the original bullet. Went to the Speer site to see data on the current ammo and the 147 didn't do as much for me as the 124 +P. Did not know there was a Gold Dot .22 WMR! No hard data out yet on the G2 ballistics unless you know a Pheebie.

Snewk
 
#10 ·
Has anyone performed their own jello tests? I have and they are a joke! Cold jello will show poor penetration and warm jello will show good penetration. Simple as that.
Sometimes I hear shooters talk about how good their ammo is and thats great but how about talking about how good you can shoot. For example, (God forbid) we find ourselves with our weapon out and the bad guy has a loved one in a hostage grip 5 yards away. He says drop your gun or I will shoot! You going to take the head shot? Are you going to have time to aim or turn on the laser? Don't forget to rack a round if you are one of those. What on earth will you do? Will it matter much how your ammo performed in a jello test? Personally I would rather eat jello and train to take the head shot with zero hesitation and zero thought. I am almost there. Denny
 
#13 ·
Are you going to have time to aim or turn on the laser? Don't forget to rack a round if you are one of those.
you bring up good points but I consolidated these two.... I have thought about this scenario more times then I've trained on it, sadly... some reasons I'm not a huge fan of lasers, 1, you tend to use it as a crutch and would be in a world of hurt if it didn't work when needed, 2, can you trust its spot on when needed? what if it got knocked loose? 3,bulk/added weight.... and I couldn't help but laugh when I read the second part of the caption, you never know when/where/why you will need your gun that's why you carry/train and get used to it, if you do not feel comfortable with a round in the chamber perhaps its just not time for you to carry a gun.... whew, there I said it, not to sound harsh to those that want to get all Israeli but that's the scenario Denny pointed out, NO you will NOT have time to rack the slide and your loved one is dead.....and most likely you've also been shot....


3. The fastest most sure stop is brain/nervous system disconnect. That means an effective, accurate head shot.

4. Good training and a high degree of skill is needed to accomplish #3.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, different guns and ammo won't fix a training issue. I must admit that lighter recoiling calibers/ammo will allow a few more people to qualify to a "passing" level.

Just one "Grumpy Old Man's" opinion. :icon_ devil::icon_ lala:

If your life was on the line, would you want a barely "passable" shooter backing you up, or a very good shooter backing you up?????
very well said.... both your posts makes me want to practice on a hostage paper targets!! ... I've been shooting a lots of steel, its time to mix it up again... Your post made me think, the next gun I sell won't be to fund another gun but maybe some professional training.... Never had any 'pro' guidance before, everything I know is self taught... and that can't be good :)
'
 
#11 ·
Denny, I'm starting to accept that gelatin testing, if done correctly, has some value for comparing performance of different ammo and may give a predictive of real terminal performance. Totally agree with you about speed and accuracy being supreme and not in that order.

As to laser activation delays, I think that at this time Armalaser has that covered and has the best overall red laser available. This GTO system will fit your XDs. GTO Information

Snewk
 
#12 ·
All very interesting! All of this "new" information has done little to change my feelings about stopping BG's with a hand gun.

I am no expert, I have spent a good number of years training/attempting to train LEO's to shoot. I will list a coupl'a points that have not changed much over the years (my experience and opinions). Some of these were mentioned in the above articles.

1. I am only considering common calibers that are used in Law Enforcement, .38spl., .357 mag, 9mm, .357sig, .40S&W, .45ACP.

2. Any premium JHP/Defense load will work just fine. As pointed out, there is not a lot of effective difference between the calibers.

3. The fastest most sure stop is brain/nervous system disconnect. That means an effective, accurate head shot.

4. Good training and a high degree of skill is needed to accomplish #3.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, different guns and ammo won't fix a training issue. I must admit that lighter recoiling calibers/ammo will allow a few more people to qualify to a "passing" level.

Just one "Grumpy Old Man's" opinion. :icon_ devil::icon_ lala:

If your life was on the line, would you want a barely "passable" shooter backing you up, or a very good shooter backing you up?????
 
#14 ·
skirting around the thread topic I forgot to comment on the gen 2 gold dot, I really like the looks of these, is it marketing hype?? time will tell but they do appear promising pending the material in the hole doesn't stick and keep the round from opening, I'm sure they coated the inside of the bullet with something petroleum based to keep it from sticking...

I'm not a fan of the dealio hornady uses then again I've never used them either....just never liked the idea I guess..... after more thought on ammo in general from posts in this thread I feel a little more confident in the old Federal Hishok I carry in my glock, heck I feel confident carrying anything other than a rock or stick at this point... :)
 
#15 ·
coffee jitter.....

denny I've never done gelatin testing but I've done a bunch of varying media tests in the past...... I also remember once carrying my walther 380 loaded with standard fmj and had a 38 stubbie with me loaded the same.... and thought hey I'll shoot that 4x4 and see if If this 380 will penetrate, it did !!! so I broke out the 85 stubbie and shot it, no go.....

Imagine that..... not scientific by a long shot but it didn't hit a knot in the wood that I could see either.....
 
#16 ·
This is turning into a really good thread and the reason is you guys participating!

Had to redo my response to Denny last night after the first try disappeared into the black hole......left out part on the rewrite so I'll add it now and wander a little down the Star Wars side path.

In Denny's Hostage/Headshot scenario I'd much rather have him take the shot than myself. Den trains more and harder than 99.9% of all shooters, including LEOs. I can't/don't/probably never will put in that kind of effort and commitment and feel that is true of the vast majority. Add to that that if the LCP is your EDC then you're working with a very marginal caliber for torso shots combined with a short sighting plane, minimalist sights and a small stock that reduces grip stability. Add in a good but not great trigger designed for SD and the equation's bottom line issue to my way of thinking is you have a very convenient, concealable and reliable pistol that mandates head/neck CNS hits but is very demanding in shooting skills to deliver those.

Given that one puts in the time and rounds on the range with Elsie developing their skills with her to maximum level of personal ability that Hostage/Headshot scenario remains more problematic than if armed with a more inherently accurate handgun. Current laser targeting systems are pretty impressive. Having a red or green dot centered on the bad guy's face would make me a lot more confident about taking the shot.

The trigger guard mounted systems that are single handgun specific will fit perfectly and seem less likely to get knocked out of alignment than the rail mount systems that utilize a bunch of different adapters to secure to a bunch of different pistols. Like anything else in a SD system you're gonna' test it, beat on it, try to make it screw up before you begin to trust and rely on it and that reliance comes with the caveat that any component in the system can fail so you train to deal with failures as well.

Done a lot of on-line research on all the current laser systems out there with the exception of Sig's('cause I really don't care) as well as pros & cons of laser sighting systems in general. Seems they can help in learning trigger control while dry firing(and would add hugely to the entertainment value of dry firing to break in a new trigger mechanism). They enhance accuracy and personal safety when you can't use visual sighting, ie. shooting from behind cover. If laser sights didn't have benefits there wouldn't be a market for them in military and LE fields.

9 months ago I got in touch with Armalaser to enquire about a unit for the LCP. One of their top people got back to me to advise they had one in development. He also offered to send me one of their current models plus a competitor's so I could compare the claimed enhanced visibility and intensity of their 635nm beam over everyone elses' 650-665nm diodes. That impressed me. In addition the Armalaser units don't require removal and resighting in to change the battery. They have a credit/exchange program if you decide to upgrade your unit. They have the best battery life in use and on standby. They have an instant on buttonless activation system that can be set up for either trigger finger touch & go or 3rd finger grip and it doesn't require a special magnetized holster. The system works with either hand and if you're wearing gloves you can glue a tiny strip of conductive material to the glove's contact point and that should work also. Finally their products all have both steady beam and strobe settings. The strobe setting makes visually locating the targeting dot a lot quicker, especially if you're not looking down the sights while targeting.

Do I like "the look"? No! Then again I think square trigger guards are ugly and much prefer the lines of an RAF Spitfire over a modern stealth fighter. A fair analogy for putting a laser on an LCP might be driving a 1970 muscle car versus a modern subcompact. In the same crash setting a seatbelt/shoulder harness may be all you need to survive in the GTO while the little car needs that plus airbags, crumple zones, hardened steel reinforcement beams etc. to allow you to walk away intact.

der pedantic(and often wrong) Snewk
 
#17 ·
hmm... after that I may/would be interested in trying a laser.... never tried one so my 'preference' primarily is based on never having one.... its my minimalist perspective that waivers most of my 'opinion' on them.... but I completely agree if a laser holds zero I would by far feel more confident in a head shot if in fact daylight or light glare doesn't hinder my dot....

guess its the old adage don't knock it til you've tried it.... expense and bulk has been the main hindrance in my trying one..... then there's also the 'cool' factor of them and I'm really not that cool.... :)
 
#18 ·
That's The Spirit! (VBG) Bulk......'bout 1 ounce hung below the muzzle adding no profile thickness and actually tending to "square up" the forward outline. Expense.....prolly less than $100 at first then dropping after the first couple months on the market, batteries maybe 6 bucks a set with a 2 year life on "standby" and 5 hours use on steady mode & close to double that on strobe.

Again, where I see the greatest benefit is on tiny carry weapons. Need to talk to 'em about making a folding grip model for the NAA minis..........

Snewk(who is passing time while waiting for resins to cure)
 
#19 ·
A laser dot may be quick to pick up on a target. I have only played with one a little. If you train with it enough it might be perfect except if it fails. A head shot with an LCP would be tough because of the trigger. I would have to be in the zone and make the shot like throwing a ball. That is one shot I would not like to make even though we do it in competition all the time.
With my 9c or XDm I would make the shot in a heartbeat. Den
 
#21 ·
denny do you have the newer version lcp??? I have the old one and find it quite accurate, or its just me getting used to the trigger :) Either way in that dire situation I'd probably fold, never know til you're there I guess.... I really do need to get into idpa..... under pressure

I too would be hesitant with the elsie, especially from pocket draw..... tis why I like to keep my hand in the pocket and on gun when surroundings have me alerted...which is hardly ever, maybe I just like to feel it every now and then..... :)
 
#22 ·
I would like to try some of the new Gold Dot G2. Having said that the thread is still on track.

You must be proficient with your carry gun and it's Iron Sights. For civilian CCW I would say 7-15 yards, head shot capable.

If you want to then add a RMR red dot sight (or any similar device) and/or a laser sight. The additional sighting system needs to be adjusted to co-witness with the iron sights.

If the add on sites are co-witnessed, the Iron Sites then become an automatic fail safe sight system. If your red dot/laser fails, you will switch to the irons without missing a beat.

Once again, if your gonna have it, you need to train with the proper use of it.

Again, just my not so humble opinion. :happy:
 
#23 ·
Your NSHOs carry even more weight with me than the cane does. My selfexpectation is to train iron-sighted to my maximum capability and use the laser for target alignment confirmation. A steel hammer is mighty simple but can do things to a smart phone that the phone has no counter for.

Snewk
 
#27 ·
"Lessons from Leftys"

I've been blessed with mentors named ""Lefty".......

One of them is Lefty Kreh, a very well-known and important figure in the Fly Fishing World. Once, while attending a public presentation he was doing and after asking him multiple questions he stopped and asked "Ken, do you know what this is?" while raising both hands into view and pointing 7 of his fingers towards the ceiling. "No, Lefty....." I replied. Says Lefty "It's a week's worth of these!" as he flips me The Bird.

der meek Snewkhopper
 
#30 ·
"The new Gold Dot bullet features cuts in the jacket that extend about halfway down the bullet, reminiscent of Federal HST."

that's all I need to hear, where do I sign?...............................................

I'm all in ........ can't wait to get my grubby hands on these bad boys.......... love federal hst's, and these appear all that and a box of rocks....
 
#33 ·
Nah, I don't like Dave Spaulding and only trust half what he says to be truth, turns out he's never even been in LE or the military or the........

oh wait a minute that was Dave Canterbury....... :p

I read the link however only browsed the others you posted snewk, I may have to go back and read those.... have you found anywhere in your outstanding search fu where they show the specs on velocity etc..?
 
#35 ·
There are reportedly guys outside of the FBI & Speer team with the data but nondisclosure agreements are a big part of why they get stuff first(and free). Some hours I think "147 gr. and not +P = 980-1050 fps" then somebody like Spaulding mumbles through his fist what sounds like "Velocity @€¥£*{" and I'm right back to WTF.

Pure and total WAG is that a big part of the bullet engineering was geared towards maximizing terminal performance at a Usual and Customary speed because half of the performance equation pertains to shootability in rapid fire. Already reading some guys bitching because they don't think 9mm rounds should ever go over 124 gr. "because velocity is what makes 9mm effective". Me, I don't know enough that my thoughts have much value.

Snewk
 
#36 ·
yeah I'm not to savvy on the whole ballistics of ammo to be quite honest, but the old federal Hi Shoks I have are 147gr and are 1000fps... I've tested these particular rounds through wet media and they have performed very well perfect expansion... tis what I carrry in my 26, mostly because I don't have anything else for SD in 9mm.....
 
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